Fascinating stuff, I don't know all that much about Islam. I doubt there are any polls, but I would wager that only a tiny percentage of Christians know just how diverse the early faith was, and how much of what was codified was by the exercise of coercive force.
Thanks Seth. I'd take that bet. Most people think that the early church was unified until Constantine tidied it up, when the reverse is closer to the truth. The part that gets skipped is that the losing side kept believing what it believed. They just had to do it somewhere the emperor's writ didn't reach.
IF MUHAMAD HAD BEEN A TRUE PROPHET HE WOULD HAVE KNOWN THE LAST DAY & JESUS 2ND COMMING ALREADY HAPPENED IN THE AD70 WAR & THAT ALL BIOLOGICAL "JEWS" MADE EXTINCT FROM WAR OF AD70 . GOD CURSED ALL BIOLOGICAL ISRAEL INTO EXTINCTION!
Deut 30:1.....WHEN ALL THESE THINGS ARE COME.. THE 🎯BLESSING🎯 AND THE 🚨CURSE🚨,..
Daniel 9:11 ....therefore 🚨THE CURSE IS POURED UPON US, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses🚨 the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. .....24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,........
👉(💥A💥).. ⚠️DESTROY⚠️... CITY . SANCTUARY... THE END THEREOF SHALL BE WITH A 💦FLOOD💦
💥 (Mat 24 :39 ..until the 💦FLOOD💦 CAME ...so shall.. coming of..Son of man)
Nahum 1: 2... LORD REVENGETH; ....WILL TAKE 🚨VENGEANCE🚨...5. 🔥🌏 ...THE HILLS MELT, 🔥🌏...7..IN 🚨THE DAYOF TROUBLE;🚨 ...8...AN OVERRUNNING 💦FLOOD💦... MAKE AN UTTER ⚠️END OF THE PLACE⚠️.......... ...........15... 👉🎯THE FEET OF HIM THAT BRINGETH 👉GOOD TIDINGS,👈 THAT PUBLISHETH PEACE!🎯👈
That is the "good news" gospel Christ preached....
1) Rev 1:7.. cometh with clouds.👁👁EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM.. THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM👁👁... (Acts 2:5) THE EARTH SHALL 💧WAIL💧 BECAUSE OF HIM.
Zech 12:1.. ⚠️WHEN THEY SHALL BE IN THE SIEGE⚠️.. 6. IN THAT DAY....👁👁THEYSHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED👁👁, THEY SHALL 💧MOURN💧 ..11. A GREAT MOURNING IN JERUSALEM... IN THE VALLEY OF ☢☠MEGIDDON*☠☢ ......
THE LAST DAYS" = 70 yrs from birth of Christ to AD 70. CURSE LASTED 666YRS. WITH 70 YR BABYLON & 70 YR ROME
596BC.....................70AD
[...........666yrs...........]
[70yr)-------------(70yrs]
Mat 5:18.....🔥🌏Till HEVEAN AND EARTH PASS🔥🌏 one jot...shall in no wise pass from the law, 💪TILL ALL BE FULLFILLED💪
1 Peter 4:7...🔥🌏END OF ALL THINGS IS ST HAND🔥🌏....17 TIME IS COME that JUDGMENT must BEGIN (not end)
1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye 👹IDOLATERS👹,.. 11...they are written for our admonition, upon whom 🔥🌏THE ENDS OF THE WORLD ARE COME🔥🌏20 ... the Gentiles sacrifice, they 👹SACRIFICE to DEVILS👹
Nahum 1: 2... LORD REVENGETH; ....WILL TAKE 🚨VENGEANCE🚨...5. 🔥🌏 ...THE HILLS MELT, 🔥🌏...7..IN 🚨THE DAYOF TROUBLE;🚨 ...8...AN OVERRUNNING 💦FLOOD💦... MAKE AN UTTER ⚠️END OF THE PLACE⚠️.
........15... 👉🎯THE FEET OF HIM THAT BRINGETH 👉GOOD TIDINGS,👈 THAT PUBLISHETH PEACE!🎯👈
Acts 2:5.. dwelling at Jerusalem JEWS, devout men, 💯OUT OF EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN💯.... (⏰Heb 1:2; LAST DAYS; Acts 2:16-17 THIS IS THAT⏰)
Acts 3:19. Repent... 🩸YOUR SINS MAY BE BLOTTED🩸 out, WHEN (Heb 9:8; Luke 21:28; 1 Peter 1:5) 🎯THE TIMES OF REFRESHING🎯
.........(** Isaiah 28:5 IN THAT DAY...unto THE 💯RESIDUE💯...12 This is the REST....🎯THIS IS THE REFRESHING🎯: yet they would not hear... 21 For the LORD...shall be 🚨WROTH🚨...bring to pass his act, HIS 👽STRANGE ACT.👽**).......
Isaiah 11:11....IN THAT DAY,...SECOND TIME to recover 💯REMNANT💯 of his people
Jer 23:3 💯GATHER...REMNANT💯. 6 IN HIS DAYS...39. I, WILL.UTTERLY FORGET U, & I WILL ⚠️FORSAKE U & THE CITY⚠️.. & 🚨CAST U OUT OF MY PRESENCE🚨
Tertullian, "Against Marcion" book 3 chapter 25.(~206 A.D.)"...the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, ‘.. FOR IT IS EVIDENT FROM THE TESTIMONY OF EVEN HEATHEN WITNESSES, THAT IN JUDEA... SUSPENDED IN THE SKY A CITY... FOR FORTY DAYS. As the day advanced... sometimes it would vanish instantly."
Thanks for reading and for taking the time. The preterist reading has a long history and serious defenders, and it's a different argument from the one my piece is making. My take is historical rather than theological.
Just so intriguing! So ironic too that what the Church fought to destroy ended up being spread all over the outer reaches of Rome to set the stage for much of Islam to come.
I was particularly impressed too by the fact of a living Gnostic sect from antiquity, the Mandaeans, still out there practicing their beliefs with scriptures written in Aramaic, although their version of it.
All in all, despite the oppression and the outright kills, religion seems to find a way.
Thanks Ariel. That's the part I find hardest to get over too. Persecution moved these ideas rather than killing them, and the direction it moved them turned out to matter enormously.
The Mandaeans are remarkable. Still baptizing in running water, still using their own Aramaic dialect, still revering John the Baptist and rejecting Jesus, after fifteen hundred years of every surrounding power having opinions about them. Their position now is precarious, since the Iraq War scattered most of the community, and there are probably fewer than a hundred thousand left worldwide. Kevin van Bladel's book on them is worth a look if you want more.
#1 "IRONICALLY", Trinitarians on one side & (JW & Islam-Muslims) on the other, are two opposite extrems of the SAME EXACT HERESY that makes Jesus a DIFFERENT PERSON.
[THE ONE SENDING = THE ONE SENT!!]
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses..and 👉MY SERVANT👈 whom 👉I👈 have chosen: that ye may KNOW and BELIEVE 👉me👈, and UNDERSTAND that
👉✝️I AM HE✝️👈........11 I, even I, am the LORD; and 💢👉BESIDE ME👈 THERE IS NO SAVIOR💢....13 Yea, BEFORE THE DAY was✝️I AM HE✝️;
John 8:24....IF YE BELIEVE NOT that ✝️I AM HE✝️, ye shall DIE IN YOUR SINS…. 28. ... LIFTED UP the Son of man, THEN shall ye KNOW that ✝️I AM HE✝️ .....58 Jesus said.....BEFORE Abraham was, ✝️I AM ✝️. 59 Then took they up stones...) 👈SPECIFIC TIME JESUS SPECIFICALY CLAIMS TO BE GOD & THEY UNDERSTOOD HIM PERFECTLY!!
“WHO” it was (what person) that came “IN THE FLESH”, IS THE DETERMINING FACTOR IN WHAT IT MEANS TO BE “ANT-CHRIST”! Even Islam claims Jesus was the Jewish messiah/Christ who was to come in the flesh. They all deny “WHO” (what person) came Christ in the flesh!?!
1Jn 2:22...Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; …”
You cant claim to believe that "I am HE" if you believe Jesus is a different person because to you Jesus is not HE but "some other different person sent by Him"!?!
To deny father is to deny son because they are the same person in the flesh!
Psalms 118:16 💪THE RIGHT HAND💪of the LORD is ✝️EXALTED✝️
(John 17:1.., Father, the hour is come; ✝️GLORIFY thy Son,✝️ …:):
... THE 💪RIGHT HAND💪 of the LORD DOETH….. 22 THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REFUSED IS BECOME THE HEAD STONE OF THE CORNER…
ISAIAH 52:6.. MY PEOPLE SHALL 🎯KNOW MY NAME🎯 therefore they shall know IN THAT DAY that ✝️I AM HE✝️ that doth speak: 👉behold, IT IS I👈. .. FEET OF HIM THAT BRINGETH 😇GOOD TIDINGS😇,… 10. THE LORD HATH MADE BARE 💪HIS HOLY ARM💪..
John 8:24....IF YE BELIEVE NOT that ✝️I AM HE✝️, ye shall DIE
Why would “Christians” denounce head & right arm as just metophore & heresy while appealing to obscure abstracts “confessed” as “incomprehensible”?
Trinity is polytheisim no different then claiming the Greek pantheon are just different persons of the same “essance”, “substance” & or “Being” of the “one true God”… “LOOK MA, PAGANS ARE ACTUALLY MOTHEIST TOO, WE ALL WORSHIP THE ONE OUSIA” 🤡…Trinitarians real faith is actually in a pantheon of 3 greater & lesser god persons
THE SUBSERVIANT JESUS-GOD
“My father is greater then I”
“No man knows, only my father”
To Father: “THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD”
“I can of my own self do nothing”
THE SUBSERVIANT JESUS-GOD FORCES EITHER
A) ACCEPT JESUS AS A DIFFERENT LESSER GOD PERSON IN A PANTHEON TRINITY= three different persons with diffiferent minds, amounts of Knowledge, power & authority over each other.
OR
B) A DIFFERENT PART OF THE SAME PERSON IN A WAY LIKE YOUR HEAD & RIGHT ARM.
MODALISIM - one person who is God manifested in different ways.
In garden…God said ye shall die…Satan states no you will be more WISE……his children say no "three in one" is more WISE & humility of God’s grandeur, the “incomprehisable” mystery of “true faith”🤡
The Trinity took roughly three centuries of argument to arrive at its final wording, and the modalist and subordinationist positions you're describing were held by large numbers of Christians during that period. Sabellius, Praxeas, and Noetus argued the modalist side, and Arius argued a version of the other one. Whether the winning formula is coherent is a theological question I'm not equipped to adjudicate. That it was contested for a very long time before it was settled is the historical part, and there we agree.
Fascinating stuff, I don't know all that much about Islam. I doubt there are any polls, but I would wager that only a tiny percentage of Christians know just how diverse the early faith was, and how much of what was codified was by the exercise of coercive force.
Thanks Seth. I'd take that bet. Most people think that the early church was unified until Constantine tidied it up, when the reverse is closer to the truth. The part that gets skipped is that the losing side kept believing what it believed. They just had to do it somewhere the emperor's writ didn't reach.
IF MUHAMAD HAD BEEN A TRUE PROPHET HE WOULD HAVE KNOWN THE LAST DAY & JESUS 2ND COMMING ALREADY HAPPENED IN THE AD70 WAR & THAT ALL BIOLOGICAL "JEWS" MADE EXTINCT FROM WAR OF AD70 . GOD CURSED ALL BIOLOGICAL ISRAEL INTO EXTINCTION!
Deut 30:1.....WHEN ALL THESE THINGS ARE COME.. THE 🎯BLESSING🎯 AND THE 🚨CURSE🚨,..
Daniel 9:11 ....therefore 🚨THE CURSE IS POURED UPON US, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses🚨 the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. .....24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,........
👉(💥A💥).. ⚠️DESTROY⚠️... CITY . SANCTUARY... THE END THEREOF SHALL BE WITH A 💦FLOOD💦
💥 (Mat 24 :39 ..until the 💦FLOOD💦 CAME ...so shall.. coming of..Son of man)
Nahum 1: 2... LORD REVENGETH; ....WILL TAKE 🚨VENGEANCE🚨...5. 🔥🌏 ...THE HILLS MELT, 🔥🌏...7..IN 🚨THE DAYOF TROUBLE;🚨 ...8...AN OVERRUNNING 💦FLOOD💦... MAKE AN UTTER ⚠️END OF THE PLACE⚠️.......... ...........15... 👉🎯THE FEET OF HIM THAT BRINGETH 👉GOOD TIDINGS,👈 THAT PUBLISHETH PEACE!🎯👈
That is the "good news" gospel Christ preached....
1) Rev 1:7.. cometh with clouds.👁👁EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM.. THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM👁👁... (Acts 2:5) THE EARTH SHALL 💧WAIL💧 BECAUSE OF HIM.
Zech 12:1.. ⚠️WHEN THEY SHALL BE IN THE SIEGE⚠️.. 6. IN THAT DAY....👁👁THEYSHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED👁👁, THEY SHALL 💧MOURN💧 ..11. A GREAT MOURNING IN JERUSALEM... IN THE VALLEY OF ☢☠MEGIDDON*☠☢ ......
THE LAST DAYS" = 70 yrs from birth of Christ to AD 70. CURSE LASTED 666YRS. WITH 70 YR BABYLON & 70 YR ROME
596BC.....................70AD
[...........666yrs...........]
[70yr)-------------(70yrs]
Mat 5:18.....🔥🌏Till HEVEAN AND EARTH PASS🔥🌏 one jot...shall in no wise pass from the law, 💪TILL ALL BE FULLFILLED💪
1 Peter 4:7...🔥🌏END OF ALL THINGS IS ST HAND🔥🌏....17 TIME IS COME that JUDGMENT must BEGIN (not end)
1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye 👹IDOLATERS👹,.. 11...they are written for our admonition, upon whom 🔥🌏THE ENDS OF THE WORLD ARE COME🔥🌏20 ... the Gentiles sacrifice, they 👹SACRIFICE to DEVILS👹
Nahum 1: 2... LORD REVENGETH; ....WILL TAKE 🚨VENGEANCE🚨...5. 🔥🌏 ...THE HILLS MELT, 🔥🌏...7..IN 🚨THE DAYOF TROUBLE;🚨 ...8...AN OVERRUNNING 💦FLOOD💦... MAKE AN UTTER ⚠️END OF THE PLACE⚠️.
........15... 👉🎯THE FEET OF HIM THAT BRINGETH 👉GOOD TIDINGS,👈 THAT PUBLISHETH PEACE!🎯👈
Acts 2:5.. dwelling at Jerusalem JEWS, devout men, 💯OUT OF EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN💯.... (⏰Heb 1:2; LAST DAYS; Acts 2:16-17 THIS IS THAT⏰)
Acts 3:19. Repent... 🩸YOUR SINS MAY BE BLOTTED🩸 out, WHEN (Heb 9:8; Luke 21:28; 1 Peter 1:5) 🎯THE TIMES OF REFRESHING🎯
.........(** Isaiah 28:5 IN THAT DAY...unto THE 💯RESIDUE💯...12 This is the REST....🎯THIS IS THE REFRESHING🎯: yet they would not hear... 21 For the LORD...shall be 🚨WROTH🚨...bring to pass his act, HIS 👽STRANGE ACT.👽**).......
Isaiah 11:11....IN THAT DAY,...SECOND TIME to recover 💯REMNANT💯 of his people
Jer 23:3 💯GATHER...REMNANT💯. 6 IN HIS DAYS...39. I, WILL.UTTERLY FORGET U, & I WILL ⚠️FORSAKE U & THE CITY⚠️.. & 🚨CAST U OUT OF MY PRESENCE🚨
Tertullian, "Against Marcion" book 3 chapter 25.(~206 A.D.)"...the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, ‘.. FOR IT IS EVIDENT FROM THE TESTIMONY OF EVEN HEATHEN WITNESSES, THAT IN JUDEA... SUSPENDED IN THE SKY A CITY... FOR FORTY DAYS. As the day advanced... sometimes it would vanish instantly."
THE FULL 480pgs
https://www.scribd.com/doc/305366745/Revelation-the-First-Gospel-of-the-Kingdom
https://www.academia.edu/23464127/REVELATION_THE_FIRST_GOSPEL_OF_THE_KINGDOM
https://allendaves.substack.com/p/the-man-of-sin-a-falling-away666the?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=1xhld
https://allendaves.substack.com/p/islam-strong-delusion-by-god-but?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=1xhldx
Thanks for reading and for taking the time. The preterist reading has a long history and serious defenders, and it's a different argument from the one my piece is making. My take is historical rather than theological.
Just so intriguing! So ironic too that what the Church fought to destroy ended up being spread all over the outer reaches of Rome to set the stage for much of Islam to come.
I was particularly impressed too by the fact of a living Gnostic sect from antiquity, the Mandaeans, still out there practicing their beliefs with scriptures written in Aramaic, although their version of it.
All in all, despite the oppression and the outright kills, religion seems to find a way.
What an enduring and die-hard force it is.
Thanks Ariel. That's the part I find hardest to get over too. Persecution moved these ideas rather than killing them, and the direction it moved them turned out to matter enormously.
The Mandaeans are remarkable. Still baptizing in running water, still using their own Aramaic dialect, still revering John the Baptist and rejecting Jesus, after fifteen hundred years of every surrounding power having opinions about them. Their position now is precarious, since the Iraq War scattered most of the community, and there are probably fewer than a hundred thousand left worldwide. Kevin van Bladel's book on them is worth a look if you want more.
What an incredible history they have! But so few left, I wish them well and hope they somehow carry on.
Thanks for the book recommendation, Tanner!
Islam & most christains hold the same exact top two most damdable heresies & obliviously point the finger at each other
1) Jesus a different person then the person who sent him
2) both await a future return of Jesus.
https://allendaves.substack.com/p/islam-strong-delusion-by-god-but?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=1xhldx
#1 "IRONICALLY", Trinitarians on one side & (JW & Islam-Muslims) on the other, are two opposite extrems of the SAME EXACT HERESY that makes Jesus a DIFFERENT PERSON.
[THE ONE SENDING = THE ONE SENT!!]
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses..and 👉MY SERVANT👈 whom 👉I👈 have chosen: that ye may KNOW and BELIEVE 👉me👈, and UNDERSTAND that
👉✝️I AM HE✝️👈........11 I, even I, am the LORD; and 💢👉BESIDE ME👈 THERE IS NO SAVIOR💢....13 Yea, BEFORE THE DAY was✝️I AM HE✝️;
John 8:24....IF YE BELIEVE NOT that ✝️I AM HE✝️, ye shall DIE IN YOUR SINS…. 28. ... LIFTED UP the Son of man, THEN shall ye KNOW that ✝️I AM HE✝️ .....58 Jesus said.....BEFORE Abraham was, ✝️I AM ✝️. 59 Then took they up stones...) 👈SPECIFIC TIME JESUS SPECIFICALY CLAIMS TO BE GOD & THEY UNDERSTOOD HIM PERFECTLY!!
“WHO” it was (what person) that came “IN THE FLESH”, IS THE DETERMINING FACTOR IN WHAT IT MEANS TO BE “ANT-CHRIST”! Even Islam claims Jesus was the Jewish messiah/Christ who was to come in the flesh. They all deny “WHO” (what person) came Christ in the flesh!?!
1Jn 2:22...Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; …”
You cant claim to believe that "I am HE" if you believe Jesus is a different person because to you Jesus is not HE but "some other different person sent by Him"!?!
To deny father is to deny son because they are the same person in the flesh!
.....THE BASTARD CHILD JESUS?
https://substack.com/@allendaves/note/p-205079622?r=1xhldx
MODALISIM OR DIE IN SINS
Psalms 118:16 💪THE RIGHT HAND💪of the LORD is ✝️EXALTED✝️
(John 17:1.., Father, the hour is come; ✝️GLORIFY thy Son,✝️ …:):
... THE 💪RIGHT HAND💪 of the LORD DOETH….. 22 THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REFUSED IS BECOME THE HEAD STONE OF THE CORNER…
ISAIAH 52:6.. MY PEOPLE SHALL 🎯KNOW MY NAME🎯 therefore they shall know IN THAT DAY that ✝️I AM HE✝️ that doth speak: 👉behold, IT IS I👈. .. FEET OF HIM THAT BRINGETH 😇GOOD TIDINGS😇,… 10. THE LORD HATH MADE BARE 💪HIS HOLY ARM💪..
John 8:24....IF YE BELIEVE NOT that ✝️I AM HE✝️, ye shall DIE
Why would “Christians” denounce head & right arm as just metophore & heresy while appealing to obscure abstracts “confessed” as “incomprehensible”?
Trinity is polytheisim no different then claiming the Greek pantheon are just different persons of the same “essance”, “substance” & or “Being” of the “one true God”… “LOOK MA, PAGANS ARE ACTUALLY MOTHEIST TOO, WE ALL WORSHIP THE ONE OUSIA” 🤡…Trinitarians real faith is actually in a pantheon of 3 greater & lesser god persons
THE SUBSERVIANT JESUS-GOD
“My father is greater then I”
“No man knows, only my father”
To Father: “THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD”
“I can of my own self do nothing”
THE SUBSERVIANT JESUS-GOD FORCES EITHER
A) ACCEPT JESUS AS A DIFFERENT LESSER GOD PERSON IN A PANTHEON TRINITY= three different persons with diffiferent minds, amounts of Knowledge, power & authority over each other.
OR
B) A DIFFERENT PART OF THE SAME PERSON IN A WAY LIKE YOUR HEAD & RIGHT ARM.
MODALISIM - one person who is God manifested in different ways.
In garden…God said ye shall die…Satan states no you will be more WISE……his children say no "three in one" is more WISE & humility of God’s grandeur, the “incomprehisable” mystery of “true faith”🤡
20pg “CLIFTS NOTES”
https://www.scribd.com/document/844419833/20-Page-Summary-PDF-1
"CHILDEREN OF A LESSER GOD"
https://allendaves.substack.com/p/children-of-a-lesser-god?utm_source=share&utm_med
#2 JESUS ISNT COMMING BACK …BUT A STRONG DELUSION MIGHT
https://allendaves.substack.com/p/the-man-of-sin-a-falling-away666the?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=1xhldx
https://substack.com/@allendaves/note/c-286164394?r=1xhldx
The Trinity took roughly three centuries of argument to arrive at its final wording, and the modalist and subordinationist positions you're describing were held by large numbers of Christians during that period. Sabellius, Praxeas, and Noetus argued the modalist side, and Arius argued a version of the other one. Whether the winning formula is coherent is a theological question I'm not equipped to adjudicate. That it was contested for a very long time before it was settled is the historical part, and there we agree.